Ep 24: Builders Win: What Cannabis Teaches You About Any Career — The Shift

with Chris Gaw · The Shift, a podcast by Headquarters

Ex-Nabis Operations Director Chris Gaw on why cannabis is a startup industry, and the builder skills that pay off in any career, in or out of weed.

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Auto-generated from the episode audio and lightly edited for readability.

0:00 The cannabis industry is an interesting place to build a career. It's unpredictable, constantly evolving, and often forces professionals to take on challenges they might never encounter in more established industries. But here's something I've always

0:18 wondered. Does working in cannabis actually give you a competitive advantage when building your career? And what happens when you take that experience into an entirely different industry? Today we're talking about professional growth, the lessons we learn in challenging business environments and

0:37 whether cannabis is an industry worth building a long-term career in. Joining me is someone I've had opportunity to work alongside, Chris Gaw, former director of operations at Nabis. We'll be looking back at our experiences, how they've

0:55 shaped our professional journeys, and whether we'd make the same career decisions all over again. Chris, welcome to the shift. Awesome. Thanks, Filip. It was a hell of an intro, man. Good stuff. Fun one. Yeah, a fun one. Um, but yeah, this is this is going to be a very

1:13 interesting episode because you and I we've worked together for what it was like uh a total of a year and a half, right? Yeah, probably about a year and a half. We were together on the AR team at Nabis. Yeah, that that was a great experience honestly for me specifically like as someone who just joined industry it was

1:32 like crazy important. So, um, yeah. Um, but yeah, ultimately, you know, you and I worked together at Nabis a year or so. You were leading operations and I was sort of leading AR

1:50 and we both gone in completely d different directions since. Um, looking back now, what did working in cannabis that early actually teach you about business in general? Yeah. Well, first of all, Filip, it's awesome to be here. Uh, it's really, you

2:10 know, amazing that you started out this this podcast and to see the way that your career developed was was really awesome to to be alongside to watch that. Um, you know, I think the interesting thing about working in cannabis is you're not usually just working in a startup, but the industry itself is a startup just because of how

2:30 new it is. Uh, that was definitely like kind of the allure of joining it in the first place. Um, you know, wanted to be in a dynamic industry and a dynamic company to kind of accelerate my career growth and find opportunities. Uh, but, you know, I think what that begets is, you know, you're not inheriting a system. you're kind of like building it and you are the system yourself. Uh you

2:49 know there's no job too small. Um I think the way that my career developed and you know the number of different teams that I had the fortune to be able to leave at Nabis and since then uh was a byproduct of having to figure out how to work in such an ambiguous environment. Um you know I would say that your career has reflected the same and so have the careers of a lot of

3:07 folks I've had the fortune of working with at HQ who've gone from AR associates to business operations to business development. Uh I think that's the beauty of the industry is it's low ego and if you're willing to work hard and try new things like there's there's really no doors that are closed for you. Yeah. You you've actually said it great

3:27 looking at the industry from a perspective of like this industry is a startup industry that is something that really does you know it really makes sense. But yeah, as as you sort of said, neither of us followed a perfectly traditional career path and somehow we both found our place in this industry

3:46 and grew pretty quickly. What do you think separates uh the people who actually built careers in cannabis from the people who come in and disappear a year later? That's a really good question. Um,

4:04 I'd say, and this is not going to be unique thing to say, but it is a a builder mentality. You know, I think that to be successful in the cannabis industry, you have to have a very entrepreneurial mindset. Um, and that's not just at the founder level, but you know, I think I've seen that at every level from hourly

4:23 associates all the way to C-suite executives. uh you know I think where I've seen folks come in and fail after bringing vast years of experience from other industries uh because they're trying to bring a model that does not necessarily work in cannabis or they're trying to bring a model that

4:41 they understand knows how to work at scale but don't know how to bring that to scale necessarily themselves. uh you know, kind of alluding back to that earlier point, like there's parts of regulation that are not set up for the cannabis industry, um because of how new the cannabis industry is and how long ago some of these regulations were

5:00 developed. Like I think an issue that was faced by a lot of folks in the California uh industry a couple of years ago was form 8300. Uh you know, it's a form that needs to be filled out every time there's more than a $10,000 cash transaction. like that was created for the jewelry industry or the automobile

5:19 industry, not for the high volume, high volume transactions that exist in the cannabis industry. Um, you know, we saw professionals that struggled with that very problem. And I saw folks that, you know, were molded by the cannabis industry, uh, that didn't see it as this insurmountable, you know, obstacle, but

5:38 rather just like another challenge to knock down. Um, so yeah, I think that's a big thing is really that entrepreneurial mindset. Um and just that grit what you said is really interesting because um some people come in, they have this pre-nowledge from different um other industries that they've worked in

5:56 and they all of a sudden feel like oh I'm going to bring this in because this was a success. How do you fix this in terms of oh wait just a second? take a look first at the industry and see how it works because what you're thinking might not really work this this time around especially because as you've mentioned yourself this is a startup

6:14 industry itself. Yeah. Um you know I think for anyone that's working at a startup uh or you know a place where you're building something it's important to be a first principles learner. Uh, you know, I think that a lot of the leadership at Nabis, for example, were homegrown from folks that

6:33 did the job themselves and were with Nabis from a long time ago. I think part of the reason why I was successful at Nabis is because, you know, I had the fortune to work through the supply chain and, you know, lead teams in the distribution driver and warehouse side as well as lead teams in the accounts receivable

6:52 and product side. Um, I think what informed me was being able to understand what the actual challenges the, you know, the teams were facing. Um, and be able to use my prior experience and knowledge to devise solutions, but combine that with the reality of what that problem actually was. Um, and so

7:11 I'd say, you know, for anyone, it's like get in there. I don't think that data models work. Uh, they need to be retrofitted to whatever the problem is. And you know, I'd say that that's reflected in the way that today people are hiring and people are getting employed. Like it's no longer about decades of industry experience. It's about how do you deal

7:30 with an ambiguous problem? Um can you be pointed in a direction and handle it? Uh and you know that's something that kind of to that earlier point I've seen and learned a lot working in the cannabis industry and at a company like Nabis. Um but I've seen proliferate throughout the rest of my experience in the professional world.

7:50 Got it. Would you say the cannabis industry is too dynamic at this stage right now? Uh I I think it depends on what the ends are. Um I would say that, you know, I don't think anyone would be happy if the cannabis industry was frozen as it is right now and people

8:09 said, you know, this is the status quo. Uh I think that there is a degree of it being dynamic that's required right now to get the industry to where it needs to be. uh there's an ind there's a dynamic of it being dynamic because of the amount of competition and uh you know interested parties that are in the industry. Um so to say like is it too

8:29 dynamic I don't know. I don't think there's anything you can really do about it right now. I think there's elements of it that you can attack as an operator or when working with like legislating bodies. Um but I think it's a byproduct of the industry and I think that it's what keeps people there as much as it is what pushes people away.

8:48 Gotcha. Okay. And I'm going to say temporary because we we not we don't really know, but you've now stepped outside cannabis. Has leaving the industry changed the way you look at it? Are there things cannabis companies do surprisingly well

9:06 or surprisingly badly that you only really noticed once you worked somewhere else? Yeah. Well, definitely don't want to say I've left the cannabis industry forever. Um, I've got Me, you know, I would say for me personally, it does feel like looking, you know,

9:24 there's that Spongebob meme of Patrick looking at his friends playing outside. I feel like it is a degree of that. Like, uh, what I love about the industry is how tight-knit it is and how small it is and how much it feels like you can effectuate what's going on and how much you can know what's going on in the community. Um, and so there's elements of that that, you know, I'll always miss

9:43 and I think I've got a stronger gratification for that. I think on the other end, um, it is about the respect I have for the people and the businesses that are in the cannabis industry. Um, you know, I think I entered the cannabis industry with about three years of professional experience

10:01 before and so I didn't have, you know, a ton of context or really a strong experience to juxtapose what it was like to be in the cannabis industry. And so when I was leaving it and I was moving on to, you know, artificial intelligence and software in the legal space, um, I

10:19 guess I didn't know what to expect working with folks that were in that industry. Um, and if I learned anything, uh, it's that the same skill set that drives people to succeed in the cannabis industry is the same skill set that drives people to succeed kind of anywhere else. Um, you know, I think

10:37 that there are unique components of it being the cannabis industry, but at the end of the day, like you're solving real problems um that exist everywhere and kind of require the same personality and engine to to get to get things done. Right. So, let me ask you, uh, I want to

10:57 go back to the Spongebob meme. Uh, uh, when you're looking at the kids play, what are you missing the most? The people, honestly, um, the growth. Like, it was so exciting to be in the

11:15 cannabis industry. Like again, you know, the the impetus of joining wasn't just, you know, to be a startup or because I thought smoking weed was cool, even though I did think smoking and do think smoking weed is cool. Um the impetus to join was that you're joining an industry that is building itself and has almost

11:34 no doubt that it will continue to grow. Um, and so, you know, I think in the gosh, like maybe four, five short, five short years I was in cannabis, like the I've seen it develop intensely. I've seen the competitive landscape of California change. I've seen, you know, states legalize. I've seen New York

11:52 grow. Um, I had the fortune of being at Nabis and seeing them expand from two facilities in California to like seven or eight facilities uh across a few different states in the US. Um, you know, there's there's I think few places where you get to come in without

12:11 an insane pedigree or experience and be able to see that kind of growth and partake in the community the way that you're able to in this industry. Um, and that that is pretty remarkable. Okay, let me put you on the spot then. What do you do not miss about the industry? Um,

12:31 it's okay to say the people again specifically. No, no, no, not not the people. No, I I love the people. I mean, to be honest, like, you know, even the bad experiences, the bad experiences with people I've had in the cannabis industry, I look back at very fondly because I think those are some of the more unique things you wouldn't see. Like, you I think we've all seen someone call someone out on LinkedIn or send a

12:51 message that HR at a Fortune 500 company wouldn't condone. Uh but but that was fun. Um yeah, I mean like I guess the only thing I probably wouldn't miss is uh like you know things do shift at the drop of a hat sometimes like you know

13:09 the regulations will change or much worse the interpretation of regulation will change uh and then there goes your next three weeks and there goes your last two weeks of what you were working on as you try to accommodate it. Um, you know, I think there's unpredictability there that drives your growth and, you

13:27 know, that is part of the foundation of what makes a career in cannabis so productive. Uh, but at the same time, you know, I like to sleep uh and not deal with so much BS uh that feels unnecessary. Got it. Oh, we're on the same page about that. I I would say that I completely

13:46 agree. But you you now mentioned one of the things being regulations and uh given where you're based. Um obviously you're a New Yorker. New York is now tying retailer delinquency and COD status much more closely into metric. From your operations perspective and

14:06 mine sort of coming from AR, do you think that's good credit discipline? um are or are we cheating a system where an accounting problem can become an operational problem very quickly? What are your thoughts on that? It's a really good question. Um

14:25 you know, I'm definitely not going to pretend like I know the answers to the biggest problem in cannabis, which is cash flow and collections. Uh I would say that the New York OCM COD delinquency list model is one that has proven to work in other industries. you know, they kind of pulled it from New

14:43 York's liquor uh COD policy. You know, they are obviously different industries. It's a lot more concentrated in liquor and so it's kind of easier to effectuate there. Um so, you know, I'd say my view on the policy is that it makes sense. Like we've seen in almost every single market uh how the misalignment between

15:03 retailers and suppliers causes massive operational problems and friction uh and a lot of people to just not get paid. So some level of accountability is very necessary. I think where the policy fails is in it not providing the flexibility that cannabis businesses usually require to do business. Um, you

15:23 know, I think as a very plain example, uh, 30-day, I believe, you know, delinquency, uh, with a 7-day notification period to the OCM is a regulation. Uh, you know, a lot of businesses like to do terms on 90 days or 120 days or sometimes even 180. Um, I think providing these businesses the ability

15:42 to, you know, customize their approach to doing business while still being able to leverage the state for their accountability measures would be a great midpoint. Um, you know, to me it's that shoulder term that really causes the most friction here. Now, you brought up a really interesting point about the accounting operations problem. You know,

16:01 I think that's something that we had to see at Nabis where, you know, once Nabis got to uh a certain size, there was this, you know, bit of an identity issue. Um, you know, how much were was Nabis supposed to enforce collections versus facilitate collections? Um, and I think what we saw is once you have enough brands that are

16:21 prominent enough size, um, you know, incentives aren't aligned, right? Like why would one brand really care if another brand's not getting paid? So I think what we had to see is our collections actually got better when we didn't have problems with our collections. You know once we indexed a bit more on why are payments not coming

16:39 through? What errors are we seeing that are preventing them? What's like bottlenecking the completion of receivables getting paid? Uh we saw a lot of success at Nabis and you know that is a bit of my concern with the OCM and the COD delinquency policy as well is accounting is a very difficult problem at Nabis or sorry in the cannabis

16:57 industry. Um, and if you don't have strong accounting and you don't have a strong payment chain of custody, you know, you might have a bit of a blame game coming where brands are blaming retailers for not paying and retailers are saying, "I sent that check a couple weeks ago." Yeah. And this this definitely was a very very big issue and still continues to be. I mean the industry as you say

17:16 yourself has this very big issue with accounting and and generally the um possibility different possibilities and the way that you can grasp those different options such as AC and so on and so on. So definitely definitely a conversation that should probably be taken much um more frequently. Um let me

17:40 very quickly pivot back again to the New York situation and and this obviously both of us we really don't don't know the answer to this question but what do you think was the reason that there isn't a lot of how you've um explained it a pallet of options when it comes to net

18:00 terms right like you're limiting the retailers to net 30 that's it why do we feel like there was this decision to be like net30 that's all you get when in fact a lot of these businesses really do depend on different types of net terms and their the relationships they're having uh brands with retailers.

18:21 My my best guess to an answer on that question would be uh for simplicity's sake honestly. Okay. Um you know I think there is a mentality from the supplier side of you know you are receiving something from me and so I do deserve payment from you. Um the cycle

18:40 time of this product is not supposed to be very long either, right? Like technically this product has a shelf life of a year, has to be retested after a year. And so if I put myself in the OCM shoes, um it is about one simplifying the operational process of tracking these receivables. Um you know,

18:59 it is on suppliers and retailers to kind of interact with the system, but it is on the OCM to audit it. Um and there are pretty steep penalties for not adhering. uh and at the same time just kind of setting an expectation with retailers of you know manage your business and manage your inventory and your sell through. Now I I am definitely more on the other

19:18 party of flexibility is needed in this business. Um and you know if if I were to be the OCM today like that would probably be one of the very first things that I look at is how do we actually provide that flexibility with payment terms. I'm going to do one last question.

19:37 When can we expect Chris to get back to the industry? Oh man, what what opportunity are you waiting for? Just just let me know. I know people. I can get you in touch. Yeah. No, I mean, look, I think that the um

19:56 I look forward to a long career. Uh, and even if I made, you know, a sum that I deemed appropriate to retire tomorrow, I think that I would continuously be working and, you know, trying to either help develop a company or develop people because that's where I take pride in.

20:14 Um, so you know, I think right now what I'm focused on are exploring some opportunities more in the tech world and to be very close to founders uh that have, you know, helped launch and execute IPOs. Um, but you know, I I

20:32 would be very surprised if I did not make a return to the cannabis industry uh before my career was over. I think there's there's too much opportunity there to do great work. I think that there's still a great mission there and you know of the communities that I've seen it's still the community that I think is filled with some of the most

20:50 optimism and you know just some of the the greatest people that I've ever seen. So yeah soon Filip I was I was uh honestly I wanted to say it was such a diplomatic answer up until the very last part I a little bit I got it too. Yeah.

21:08 Okay. Okay. But it's uh it's fine. Okay. Well, Chris, thank you so much for being my guest. Honestly, I was really looking forward to this for like from the moment I started doing the podcast. My one of my goals for the future was to have a chat with you on the subject that we

21:27 were discussing today. So, um I feel like one of my goals is um now good and uh I was really happy with um with all the topics that we've covered today. So, thank you again. really appreciate it. I appreciate you, man. You know, again, I think you're a fantastic representation of what can happen in the

21:46 industry. You know, you should be very proud of the work that you've done and, you know, for if this makes it to the the final edit. You know, I just say, Phil, like you continuously have impressed me with the work ethic you have and the mentality you have about really everything. So, keep up the great work and yeah, man, can't wait to see what we both do. And yes, I'm going to

22:05 keep this in the final edit because I need a I need people to to hear that as well. Chris, where can people find you on socials? You can share whatever you want. Uh yeah, I mean my socials, you can find me on LinkedIn at Chris Gaw. Um you can

22:23 find me on Instagram at thegreat_gaw g- aw. Um that's it. Not a crazy footprint. and find you in New York as well. There you go. There you go. Awesome. Again, thank you so very much. I really do appreciate your time today and your wisdom. Have a great rest of

22:42 the day and we will chat soon. I appreciate you, man.